2

DAC+ Pro clocks

multi

February 11, 2016 12:14

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I'm using a Pi2 in combination with the DAC+ Pro.

With the old kernel without the support of the clocks of the Pro itself,  i really love the sound. With a new kernel supporting the Pro clocks the sound is dull. The soundstage is much smaller and less open. The highs are less detailed and the bass is lacking body.This was my first experience some months ago so i stayed with the old kernel.Yesterday i tried it again with the newest kernel but with the same experience, just dull sound in comparison with the old kernel.

Is there somebody who has experience with the pro clocks and what can be the reason for this changing sound experience?

 

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37 comments

• 1
  
  HiFiBerry team February 15, 2016 05:27

  I can't tell you what might be the issue in your setup. I haven't heard any "dull sound" with the DAC+ Pro and would personally not say that the DAC+ Pro sounds worse. As the circuits are different, there are minor differences in the sound. I wouldn't say which one sound better, it's also about personal preferences. We might look into an option to disable the onboard clock circuit for people who prefer the DAC+ sound.

  Best regards,
  Daniel

• 1
  
  multi February 15, 2016 09:42

  I have a DAC+ and a DAC+ Pro. I did some testing with old and new kernels in comparison with a Marantz CD player.

  It's subjective but to give an impression of my experience a figure for comparison.

  Marantz CD player sound: 7

  DAC+ with old and new kernel and DAC+ Pro with old kernel: 8

  DAC+ Pro with new kernel: 6

  The DAC+ Pro with its own clocks is definitely worse playback in comparison with the Pi clocks and also in comparison with the CD player.

  I can't explain why just changing the clock source give such a different result in playback.

  If you look to the review of Hans Beekhuyzen his first conclusion was that the sound qualtity was not good. He became positive after using a lineair power supply directly connected to the DAC+ Pro. I wonder what his opinion was if he had used an old kernel in the first place.

  Just to put thing in perspective. I really think that the DAC+ gives an outstanding performance. I just regret that the Pro with own clocks nothing can add to that and in my opion gives even a mediocre result.

• 1
  
  Pierre February 25, 2016 08:21

  I did not notice any lacking of "music feeling" with DAC+ Pro. I plug directly the DAC+ pro to my power amplifier and using hardware volume functionality.
  I use latest linux version with Moode distribution.
  Sound is better, clearer, clean (maybe too clean for many of you???) than my ChromeCast Audio (DAC AKM AK4430). With the chromecast, it's more like a muzzled sound without transparency.
  I did not try with a standard CD player however or other DAC.
  However this "issue" of "dull sound" has been reported several times for Hifiberry DAC (should be the same problem with DAC+). Like lack of natural rendering ? To my opinion it seems very
  I'm quite sure that the TI PCM5122 is not a bad chip, very stange that you got this kind of result.
  In a few weeks, I m going to use external DAC and an ESS Sabre raspberry DAC.

• 1
  
  HiFiBerry team June 09, 2016 06:54

  The jitter on the Raspberry Pi clock seems to result in some a pattern that some people prefer. While most people like the sound of the DAC+ Pro, you now have the option to force it into slave mode.

  You need to install the latest Linux kernel and add the parameter ":slave=on" to the dt-overlay line. 

  Best regards,
  Daniel

• 1
  
  multi June 09, 2016 18:14

  @Scott

  I'm using a Pi 2B. I tested with a LPS both by USB and through the DAC+ Pro.

  I tested Volumio 1.55 in combination with berryboot with the old 3.x en the new 4.x kernel.

  With 3.x it works in slave mode, in (later) 4.x with it's own clocks.

  I also tested picoreplayer and volumio 2 without berryboot.In this situation i compared between a DAC+ and the DAC+ Pro.

  I compared also with traditional equipment like a CD Player.

  My conclusions:

  - DAC+ Pro sounds the same as DAC+ when using in slave mode.

  With its own clocks i found the Pro:

  - lacking body in low end

  - less detail in high end

  - less dept and width in soundstage

  It must be something in the PCM5122 implementation. Theoretical it should be better with it's own clocks.

  On the orther hand the Pi clock with jitter especially with 44.1, 88.2 and 176.4 sample rates will be tempered by the PLL of the PCM5122.

  I can't really explain those differences. I really like to hear your findings.

   

• 0
  
  Mateusz Sarna February 14, 2016 17:08

  The same here. Audio much worse.

  What happened hifiberry?

  Please tell us.

• 0
  
  Scott Kramer February 19, 2016 06:16

  multi,

  What software/dist are you running for playback? picoreplayer, volumio, max2play, raw linux etc...

• 0
  
  multi February 19, 2016 09:38

  Hi Scott,

  I'm using Volumio 1.55.

  Also tested it with a USB DAC, a Micomega MyDac also using its own clocks

  The DAC+ is close but the Pro is lacking "music feeling" unless using an old kernel without supporting Pro clocks.

  The problem is not clicks, distorbtion or missing tones, just dull sound in comparson with the DAC+, CD player and the MyDac.

  No problems with different bit- and samplerates. 

   

• 0
  
  Scott Kramer February 21, 2016 23:03

  Doubt it's the clocks, and I don't trust updating linux underneath Volumio, they really need to update it. Try picoreplayer, see if you get the same results.

• 0
  
  tml3nr June 09, 2016 00:37

  Hi multi,

  Thank you very much for sharing your experience about Dac+ Pro.
  
  "The highs are less detailed and the bass is lacking body" describes exactly the sound when i try on many kernel 4.1.x
  
  Sound is better with the kernel 3.18.x

  Edited by tml3nr June 09, 2016 23:32
• 0
  
  multi June 09, 2016 06:28

  @ Pierre.

  Do you have already results with an external DAC and/or the ESS Sabre DAC?

  @ Scott

  I had more or less the same results with picoreplayer.
  I saw on different forums that you are really in depth with those devices inclusive hardware mods.
  In my opion the DAC+ Pro (using its own clocks) is musically really a firm step back in comparison with the normal DAC+.
  The difference is really significant so you must have noticed it?  

  @ Daniel

  Is there already an option voor disabling the clocks on a DAC+ Pro?

   

  Edited by multi June 09, 2016 06:32
• 0
  
  Scott Kramer June 09, 2016 16:16

  @multi:

  I'll try it out for you (now that we can set slave mode)... what pi are you using, software & version, and are you using switching power thru usb or a LPS thru the Dac?

   FYI, I don't think you can test *without* the clocks with picoreplayer... the 1 old version that had the old kernel *and* supported the Dac+ would not init the card for me. 

  Edited by Scott Kramer June 09, 2016 16:35
• 0
  
  Scott Kramer June 09, 2016 18:37

  Do you prefer I test with, or without a LPS-- ?

  I do not have a regular Dac+ -- is it the same PCM5122? (too lazy to look at the specs :D)

  Edited by Scott Kramer June 09, 2016 18:39
• 0
  
  tml3nr June 10, 2016 00:59

  Hi Daniel,

  Please tell me more detail, so i edit in /boot/config.txt as below?

  dtoverlay=hifiberry-dacplus,slave=on

  or:

  dtoverlay=hifiberry-dacplus,24db_digital_gain=slave

  i wish sound like 3.18.x on lastest kernel.

  Thank you very much!

• 0
  
  HiFiBerry team June 10, 2016 06:17

  The 24db_digital_gain has nothing do to with the clocks. It only changes the available range for the mixer settings.

  slave=on 

  is the right parameter.

  Best regards,

  Daniel

• 0
  
  multi June 10, 2016 08:17

  @Scott

  The DAC+ uses also the PCM5122 and sounds identical to the Pro when using the Pro in slave mode.

  The difference in sound quality with the Pro between "master' and slave clock is much bigger than the difference using a switching power supply  or a LPS.

• 0
  
  tml3nr June 11, 2016 00:33

  @Daniel

  Thank you very much. i am very happy to get the sound of 3.18.x on lastest kernel!
  

   

  Edited by tml3nr June 11, 2016 23:26
• 0
  
  Dave ruhle December 24, 2016 21:24

  I wasn't using my Dac+ Pro because the sound was so...not poor...but just totally un-involving and lifeless. Couldn't return it because I had modded it for separate power on the analog stage, etc. and nothing was helping. I've probably spent tens of hours on playing with all the options in the mixer, oversampling rates, filter settings, different distros, different players like CMUS, etc. Nothing really made a big "ah - that's it!" difference.

  I'm glad I found this thread this morning.

  Let me tell you there is a *major* difference - for the better - adding slave=on in the config.txt. And I'm not talking about audiophile hair-splitting BS here. Huge, huge positive step forward. It no longer sounds like someone put a towel over my tweeters, pushed my speakers together, and put a compressor in the signal chain.

  Everyone who owns one of these needs to do this and at least judge for themselves. I honestly can't imaging anyone preferring the default sound w/ the Pro's clock turned on.

• 0
  
  Francis Barban February 13, 2017 22:04

  I am using a DAC + PRO could you give the exact syntax to config slave mode?

  dtoverlay=hifiberry-dacplus,slave=on

  or

  dtoverlay=hifiberry-dacplus:slave=on

  ??? Why don't you give it full start at the begining? I can't believe........

   

• 0
  
  HiFiBerry team February 14, 2017 06:53

  @Francis: Do you understand what this does? This basically reduces the DAC+ Pro to a DAC+ Standard. While some customers seem to prefer the sound of the DAC+ Standard, the huge majority see the advanced clocking as an advancement in sound quality (I know a lot of people that have used both boards).

  Feel free to experiment, but we won't activate this as a default. If you wan't to run the DAC in slave more, you don't have to buy the DAC+ Pro, just use the DAC+ Standard.

• 0
  
  Francis Barban February 14, 2017 08:18

  I understand very well that for a higher price i've got a lower sound ;-) But anyway stop joking, the real problem is the lower sound, very very flat. I used this syntax in boot/config.txt  :

  dtoverlay=hifiberry-dacplus,slave=on

  and "there was sound".
  Pro or not Pro does not matter and price gap is very low.

• 0
  
  HiFiBerry team February 14, 2017 08:38

  Unfortunately, I can't say what's the problem in your setup. In our experience that DAC+ Pro doesn't sound flat. If you bought the DAC+ directly from us, you can use our money-back guarantee, return it to us and get it refunded. Sound quality is subjective, that's why we offer the money-back guarantee.

  If you want to use the money-back guarantee, please send an email to support@hifiberry.com with your order number.

  Best regards,
  Daniel  

• 0
  
  Francis Barban February 14, 2017 09:11

  Thanks a lot but I like so much the sound of your product. I would consider to return it only if it's possible to use a reclocker solution. As I understood config the DAC + PRO in slave could work with it but still missing the 3.3V. Could you purpose something in that way?

• 0
  
  HiFiBerry team February 14, 2017 09:24

   

  Hi,

  I don't think it makes sense to use a high quality clock circuit, disable it and use an external clock that doesn't even provide a full master clock, but only a bit clock. Therefore we won't support any re-clocking boards. In my opinion the right way is to use a good quality clock from the beginning not trying to add it somewhere in between.

  Best regards,
  Daniel 

• 0
  
  Francis Barban February 14, 2017 09:44

  Yes I follow you very well, but is there a way to be sure that my config is good? I install the last release debian on Raspberry from volumio and my /boot/config.txt is :

  initramfs volumio.initrd
  gpu_mem=16
  force_turbo=1
  max_usb_current=1
  disable_splash=1
  dtparam=audio=on
  dtparam=i2c_arm=on
  dtoverlay=hifiberry-dacplus,slave=on

  what can i do more?

   

   

• 0
  
  Francis Barban February 14, 2017 11:12

  And without ,slave option the sound is unanimly (several friends around) lower quality. Maybe the goos solution would be to exchange DAC PRO?

   

  Edited by Francis Barban February 14, 2017 11:13
• 0
  
  HiFiBerry team February 14, 2017 11:21

  Dear Francis,

  I told you before that we have a money-back-guarantee. If you're not happy with the sound quality and you think it's not the right product for you, you can return the product. Feel free to use the board in slave mode if you think this sounds better for you. The majority of our customers thinks different, but sound quality isn't something I argue about. It is something everybody has to experience by himself and decide what he likes.

  Best regards,
  Daniel

• 0
  
  Francis Barban February 14, 2017 11:33

  ok. Does my config look good for you?

• 0
  
  HiFiBerry team February 14, 2017 11:37

  Yes, it does.

  Best regards,
  Daniel

• 0
  
  Mark Veldman February 14, 2017 13:09

  I stumbled upon this thread because i am using a Dac + Pro as well.
  I use Volumio 2.041 on a Raspberry Pi 3 and an external LPS and i can tell you that the sound of the Pro is way better than the normal Hifiberry Dac + without the additional clocks (I own them both)

  The detail of the Pro is better and the bass is tight and good.
  Listening to the Pro puts a smile on my face, over and over again.

  I would overthink your decision to send it back and first really look into your setup.

  Edited by Mark Veldman February 14, 2017 13:17